For now I am happy with a working training and bonus system but at some future point weapon skills also will add talents to the talent pool of all beings (yes, all beings - not that any kind of being has weapon skills and can improve them - even lowly monsters ;-) ).
No more one handed polearms? Looking great though!
ReplyDeleteNo more 1H spears ? :) WS system looks nice. Can't wait to test it and achieve grand mastery :)
ReplyDeleteRemoved that yesterday. Two comments about it imply I should add it again ;-)
ReplyDeleteIf you do, make them less overpowered than they were in ADOM, please?
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why so many games want to put maces and flails in one category... From a gameplay perspective I don't really care, but in the real world, using one is NOTHING like using the other. I'd say maces and axes would be much more similar. There are basically three techniques with medium length rigid weapons - you cut, bash, or hit (with sticks). With an axe you just need to bash with the correct side. Don't know if flails and whips would be similar, but probably not.
ReplyDeleteI find it a bit strange that very similar skills, such as 1H and 2H Swords don't influence each other. Shouldn't a fighter with 1H Swords level 5 be a better 2H Sword-fighter than a complete newbie?
ReplyDeleteMy suggestion is therefore that you should gain maybe 1/2 or 1/3 mark in similar skills when training your main weapon skill. Or something similar to that.
@Simvig: You are absolutely right. As JADE does not have any constraints in that regard I will change this right away and divide maces and flails into separate groups. Please send me your real name to the e-mail address mentioned to the top right so that I can put you into the credits!
ReplyDelete@EbbeLockert: Also a very good point. I'm somewhat torn between giving marks to related skills or just assuming a default skill level derived from other skills.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is this (and currently I prefer that solution): If you e.g. have 1H swords at level 9 and the rules say that this means that you can fight with maces at 1/4, 2h swords at 1/2 and axes at 1/3 you would have level 9 in 1H swords, level 2 in maces, level 4 in 2h swords and level 3 in axes as a benefit due to the immense sword skill. Nonetheless you still would need to win the marks for e.g. level 2, 3 and 4 in 2h swords in order to be able to increase the skill to level 5. The logic behind is that (a) it takes into account that different weapons actually require different training regimens to become an actual expert and (b) that it's good for game balance as it discourages weapon min-maxing for relationship bonusses.
What do you think?
Would it be possible to modify the training aptitude if you have a similar skill?
ReplyDeleteBasically, in this case, you would never get skill with, for example, axes, when using a mace. Since the method of use is similar though, if you have a high mace skill, you can learn to use an axe faster.
By changing the speed of learning a skill in such a way, it might be possible for certain cross-skills to feel natural in the way they train.
if you wanna get systematic about it, this is a good bit about weapons classification:
ReplyDeletehttp://tracelesswarrior.blogspot.com/2011/01/found-and-improvised-weapons.html
Just gave the weapon categories some more thought... maces now will be joined into the 1H/2H blunt category. Flails (1H and 2H) will be added though.
ReplyDeleteAbout thrown weapons, I realize it would be unrealistic to have a separate category for each type, but boomerangs and scurgari require a different throwing techniques. For example, rocks or clubs are thrown straight at a person, a boomerang is thrown at an angle high in the air so it will return and hit them on the way back. Sorry i play a lot of drakelings so I'm always thinking about scurgari
ReplyDeletemaybe some clarification about the systematic- you have five axes:
ReplyDeleteShort-Long
1H-2H
Long-Short
Sharp-Blunt
Heavy-Light
Rigid-Flexible
so you can classify a weapon, say maces: Short, 1h, Blunt, Heavy, Rigid
and compare with an ax: Short, 1h, Sharp, Heavy, Rigid
one aspect is different, strong synergy.
vs a spear: Long, 2h, Sharp, Light, Rigid
one aspect is similar, not a lot of synergy.
and then it works even better if instead of just, say, Short or Long, you have an axis with values to compare.
I like having Maces joined in the Blunt category. An idea I had long ago playing ADOM was that Maces should be combined with Clubs, and perhaps combine Axes and Hammers. After all, both axes and hammers consist of a handle with a head, and both are used by striking with a specific part of the head. (Or two specific parts, for double-bladed axes and double-faced hammers.)
ReplyDeleteIf anything, Flails could be combined with Whips.
I'm not sure I like having 1h/2h categories for each weapon. Here's my suggestion:
Like in ADOM, have a category for 2h weapons. But, this category is trained concurrently. So, using a 2-handed sword will train both swords and 2-handed weapons. A 2-handed axe trains axes and 2-handed weapons. And so on... Weapons like staves that really only exist in 2-handed form would still train 2-handed weapons.
Finally since no one else has commented on it, I love that the crit- probability and multiplier increase with weapon skill.
@Thomas Biskup: I support the default skill level idea 100 %. You are absolutely right that one ought to avoid min-maxing, as that is a major problem.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I am concerned about is that a skilled warrior might be discouraged from trying another weapon, because he might require thousands of marks before feeling an actual improvement to his new weapon's skill (as he has to train to level 2,3,4 and 5). This applies especially at higher levels.
I do however agree that min-maxing is a greater problem than this is.
By the way, I totally agree with MrNiceguy: Critical-related bonuses are really cool. Just make sure they are not too overpowered (a base critical of x2 is completely overshadowed if level 10 1H swords give +5)
Too soon for weapon talents ideas? Maybe... maybe not!!!
ReplyDeleteThings I want to see (most of which don't make sense in the real world, but in the world of JADE are probably okay?):
Lots of cool bow/thrown weapon talents for people who specialize in them. Ie; Shooting multiple projectiles or projectiles very quickly.
I could imagine this looking like you use your skill (Triple Shot/Tri-Arrrows/Rapid shot, whatever it is called) and three missile attacks go towards where you shoot. If the first one or second shot kills your target the next goes past it to potentially hit the next one. I could also see this kind of skill working to attack groups with some kind of spread shot or a boomerang shot hitting multiple enemies...
I also like the idea of shots that weaken enemies, ie: slowing them down, knocking them out, catching them on fire... =D
Okay I have many more ideas for weapon talents but shall leave off until you get to that point! Thanks and good luck Thomas! (And hope my donation helps you out!)
-C. Peacock
Can I quick say I LOVE where this is going? I've thought for a long time that improving one weapon skill should influence the minimum bonus of similar weapon skills, so I am overjoyed at what I'm seeing.
ReplyDelete-IFightForTheUsers
maybe make it so that if you have let's say lvl 9 in 1H swords, then the amount of points require to raise 2H sword skill would be lower until it's at the same level
ReplyDeleteOr even just allow weapon skills to improve faster if they're at a lower level than the default provided by other skills, probably skewing it so that the bigger the difference, the bigger the increase. That would be realistic, encourage players to diversify their skills, and create interesting tactical decisions without making them so strong that players are forced to min/max to succeed.
ReplyDeleteI suspect this might be exactly the type of suggestion you don't want right now but ...
ReplyDeleteI have long been a player of ADOM and it has always struck me it would be great if certain weapons were more effective against certain monsters/armors.
So if a weapon had an potential to pierce, slash, flay and bludgeon.
A mace bludgeons (maybe with a little flay effect).
A whip slashes and flays.
A sword pierces, slashes and (if big and heavy) bludgeons.
An arrow only pierces (but very well).
A troll is almost uneffected by piercing and slashing.
A spider is more difficult to pierce or bludgeon (quick on it's feet).
So a player will need to develop more than one weapon skill.
All the best and keep up the good work.
A thought about weapon cross training
ReplyDeleteIf you achieve a hit with a weapon one gets added to your required marks.
However if the weapon is considered to align with another you already have marks for and level for the other weapon is higher than the one is use you gain more than one mark (eg difference in levels divided by two). These bonuses are only applicable from one aligned weapon (the one currently on the highest level).
This would mean some who had achieved mastery at swords could get through the earlier levels of 2H swords very quickly but would slow as the level got higher.
A couple of comments:
ReplyDelete* No shield skill?
* If using a sword(1H) is a weapon skill, and using a shield is a weapon skill (please), should two-weapon combat be a combat skill too?
* How about fighting with a one-handed weapon and nothing in the off hand - could there be any advantages to this?
* How about wielding a cloak or similar instead of a shield - maybe some magic cloaks could give a bonus/advantage?
How about wielding a net instead of shield for classical gladiator Trident + Net combo? :)
ReplyDeleteIIRC, ADOM gave a slight bonus when you used a spear and no shield, presumably because the character could use a double-handed grip... There could be 1.5-handed weapons that can be used one-handed but become stronger without shield.
Will weapon size be an issue? For example, a giant should be certainly able to use a human two-handed sword as a one-handed weapon (but probably with a to-hit penalty as it's not being used the way it should).
I definitely want some cool weapon logic for beings with more than 2 arms... Would I be able to see a four-armed giant wielding a humungous three-handed sword and a shield? :)
Talking about realism and weapons: War hammers can pierce armor, and are probably better at it then spears (this has been physically proven).
ReplyDelete"The spike end could be used for grappling the target's armour, reins, or shield, or could be turned in the direction of the blow to pierce even heavy armour."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer
If I would have to pick any medievel weapon in real life, no doubt it would be a hammer with a spike. It is by far the most effective weapon to shred things to pieces.